Warhammer/Tactics/8th Edition/Undead Legions

WORK IN PROGRESS! Feel free to populate the page. We must no just c'n'p all info from VC and TK tactics - we must evaluate units against new options.

Why Play Undead Legions

Well, it is an enormous army of undead, led by Nagash and trying to both conquer the world and destroy Chaos. It has basically everything from both Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings armies, making it very versatile and awesome army.

You can make full-cavalry lists, with Skeleton Horsemen as Core and Black Knights as Specials or convert a Necrolyth Colossus as von Carstein family statue. Options are mind-boggling!

They pretty much brought back the "Warhammer: Undead" army from 4th Edition... Awesome!

Army Special Rules

By default, they follow the basic rules of their original armies. Then there are some additions.

• No crumble if general dies. This involves undead summoned by Lore of Undeath.
• For that reason, the Hierophant is officially not needed.
• TK can march if within 12" of general - THIS INVOLVES EVEN REGULAR TK!
• Anything that effects Nehekharan Undead effects Undead and vice versa (Every instance where in the Tomb Kings book "Nehekharan Undead" is mentioned, treat this as Undead as per Undead Legions), so you can take a Tomb Prince with Grave Guard, boost Necromancers with Hierotitans or grant your chariots kick-ass regeneration with your Mortis Engine.
• TK constructs can only heal one wound per casting.
• Characters /units can only take options/upgrades/magic items from their respective army books - so no Sphynx-Riding Vampires or MWBD for your Black Knights.

Unit Analysis

Lords & Heroes

Note, that under End Times supplement rules, you can spend up to 50% of your points on Lords.

Named Characters

Note: Under the current edition, named characters tend to be overpriced; you can emulate most named characters from scratch and save yourself some points. That said, many named characters do have abilities and war gear combos unique to them so if you need to have them go ahead. Just make sure you're really getting your points worth.

• Nagash:

Nagash is melee and magic powerhouse, capable of taking on Greater Daemons in melee, while outmagiking Teclis and summoning legions of undead.He is a Level 5 Wizard with access to Lores of: Death, Light, Nehekhara, Vampires and Undeath. He gets Large Target, Terror and Undead, along with: Arch-Necromancer which allows him to re-roll miscasts, though he must accept the 2nd result. Death Magic Incarnate allows all friendly units within 12 inches of him to suffer two less wounds from Unstable, which stacks with other modifiers. Supreme Lord of the Undead allows any models that are summoned from his Lore of Undeath to triple range and points allowed, including additional points created by Raise the Dead counters, but NOT tripling them. Alakanash, the Staff of Power allows him to store up to four power dice from his current pool for later use in any of his magic phases, you can also discard one before close combat to give one of his attacks HKB, including ones made with Zefet-nebtar though you roll for it separately. Morikhane, The Black Armour is a magic armour which gives Nagash a 4+ in both Armour and Ward. The 9 Books of Nagash allow him to have 9 spells, the first always being, Ryze, The Grave Call from the Lore of Undeath, and he rolls the others from any selection of the Lores he knows although he does not pick them, but he can roll in any combination. Zefet-nebtar, The Mortis Blade, is a Magic weapon which gives him +1S and Multiple Wounds D3 Special Rule

• Vlad von Carstein, Mortarch of Shadow:

500 points for a virtually unchanged character, except there's no more Isabelle so no isabelle special rule for him. He can no longer go nuts but instead everything has a -1 to hit penalty against him because of the Mortarch of Shadow special rule. He's still a L3 wizard and can generate his spells like Nagash can. Out of all the Mortarchs, he's the only one witrh a 4+ ward and his magic weapon allows him to restore wounds on a 4+ as per the hunger rule instead of 6+. The ring also still allows him to get back to 'life' the first time he's killed at the end of a phase, as long as you pass the 2+. So, out of all of the mortarchs, he's the most likely to survive a battle.

• Count Mannfred, Mortarch of Night:

Like all of the Mortarchs, this guy is expensive and has almost no worthwhile saves. He still has the armor of Templehof and is now mounted on his snazzy pony for a total of a 4+ armor save. He has T6 so he still dies to cannonballs, but, here's the fun part: The Pony is part of him, for all rules purposes, so they can't kill the horse from underneath him. From all the mortarchs, Mannfred has the best save by far and has 10 fucking wounds to boot, which he can potentially heal back by picking a Lore of Vampires spell. Oh, right, I forgot to tell; like Nagash, the Mortarchs can generate spells in the exact same way as Nagash can. What sucks though, is that he lost loremaster for some fucking reason, which was the very reason took him in the first place. Still, he has a tonne worth of pretty solid special rules, like, he can add or remove dice from the power to get or lose an attack per dice added or taken. This means he can make an exception to the rule of maximum 10 in a given stat and go for 12 attacks by giving up 3 dice, which is pretty fucking badass if you ask me. His sword is limited to generating 5 dice per round though, limiting the shenanigans. Then again, who gives a damn about 3 power dice? Have him do 12 attacks + 1d6 thunderstomp and add 5 back- if you do it right, you'll never lose a magic phase ever again. Finally, he still has Master of the Black arts, can fly, has terror and, last but not least, spells from Lore of Undeath count as having double their range when he uses them. 650 points pretty worth it if you ask me.

• Queen Neferata, Mortarch of Blood:

Neferata is the least magically inclined of the Mortarchs, being only a L3 wizard, but she can still generate spells like Nagash can, which is okay. Her measly armor save of 6+ is slightly mitigated by her 'Twilight Allure' special rule, which confers a -1 to hit penalty when anything attacks her, except this special rule doesn't work against Khalida (and Tomb Kings in general, so massed poisoned arrows kill her). She's made for blasting magic missiles, direct damage and hexes you'd think, as her Staff inflict D3 S5 magical hits on affected units when the spell has been resolved. Her dagger is lulzy but pretty situational, it functions only once and reduces the S, T and A to 1 on a single model. Do you see the flaw in this? I do, because whatever she's pushed against in close combat should drop dead like a fly to a zapper and if that particular target won't do just that? Well don't put her in that fucking combat then. It's still pretty good in certain situations as it only works in a challenge, so you could potentially ruin the day of a certain few chaos lords or vampires. Her Mortarch of blood allows her to summon a single vampire the first time an enemy model was killed by her, this vampire has no upgrades or whatever, but it has it's uses. Being the female equivalent of Speed Racer, she has ASF, fly, terror and a large target. 650 points hardly worth it, but she has a pretty nice ches-- hat, so that counts for something.

• Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament:

No longer a 5th level Wizard, which is why you fucking took him in the first place. Like Neferata and Mannfred, he now costs 650 points and is a monster, can fly, causes terror and is a large target, and like Neferata only has a 6+ armour save and T6 with 8 wounds. Still, the points value summoned from Lore of Undeath is doubled, including counters you have produced, meaning he's halfway being Nagash without the saves. Even his staff allows a similar effect, being able to store two power dice for future use and increasing a spellcasting attempt to 8 dice if you want to. His feaster of souls special rules functions exactly like "the hunger" special rule from Vampires. Also, albeit not being a vampire, he can make march moves as normal, even if he's not within range of the general. Also, he's only LD9 without a ward save and with an I of just 3 he's VERY vulnerable to death magic. If you'd want one of the Mortarchs, I'd go for Mannfred.

• Krell, Mortarch of Despair:

No horse and 400 points cheaper than other Mortarchs, he gets heroic killing blow when he's in the same combat as Nagash and fighting a Challenge. He remains unchanged for one thing, which is whenever an enemy unit fails a fear, terror or break test anywhere within 12"of him, he automatically regains a single wound earlier in battle. He still has a 4+ armor save and if he passes it then the magic weapon that struck him will be useless from then on and he still has the Nigger Axe of Krell, which is bloody good. Since generals don't have to take lore of Vampires anymore, putting him in a grave guard unit supported by a Lore of Metal Vampire Lord is hardly a bad idea. If you want to put more eggs in that basket, add a Tomb King to make said unit have more WS, add banner of the barrows and suddenly everything melts and fails break tests. Pretty vulnerable on his own, but he's worth every penny when supported in the right way.

• High Queen Khalida:

Queen Neferata's sister, oddly you can take her in the same team as her, even though they hate each other's guts. She has ASF, making her the fastest Tomb King character available, coupled with 5 attacks and S4 poisoned, she is a very formidable melee character against basic troops. Her T5 and light armor are not enough to protect her against other characters or monsters, though. Khalida is the posterchild of Undead Legions archer lists, as her MWBD grants her BS3 to any unit of archers she joins in addition to granting their shooting attacks poisoned, ramping up the damage output of the unit. She makes a good general for archer-heavy lists, but a fragile one so if you take her, keep her in a unit, preferably buffed with some form of protection (Incantation of Neru). Or support the unit with Lore of Heavens and watch the unit re-roll failed to hit and wound rolls. Good times.

• Prince Apophas:

Unchanged.

Generic Characters

Note: While named characters are judged against their generic counterparts, generic characters are examined based on their role in your army.

Lords

• Vampire Lord:

Brilliant stat line, a metric fuckton of upgrade options, and outside of the Chaos Lord is probably the most dangerous generic combat lord in the game (he probably would have been the best since he can kill more models per round compare while the Chaos Lord is better at single combat, but there's the whole problem where your army starts crumbling if he dies unless you're at the point level to take more than one). Naturally, characters are the first place points go in a Vampire Counts army, and this motherfucker will likely soak up as many points as you can give, especially with the new 50% limit. Properly kitted out they can stand toe to toe with Lords and go on to rampage through Special units all while having excellent magical options. Mounting these badasses up is not only an option, but depending on your goals may just be the point of taking him. All Vampires are level 1 Wizards in Lore of Vampires, Death, Shadow or Undeath and you can upgrade them up to a level 4. Item selection and powers will be covered later. 220 points at base level. Also, since generals don't have to take Lore of Vampires anymore, giving him lore of Shadows or Death is hardly a bad idea, and neither is going for the other good lores from the BRB when you take Forbidden Lore. These bad boys became much more versatile then ever before. Just don't go overboard and make sure you have a clear plan of what you want him doing.

• Vampire:

It's a vampire, duh. Take it if you need a killy hero (though prepare to pay for it - Tomb Prince or Wight King are cheaper), or if you have some non-generic-vampire Lord and want that Coven Throne.

• Tomb King:

At the first glance, Tomb King loses out to Vampire Lord on many accounts - lower M, WS, BS, I and A, Flammable, cannot magic, cannot take mundane heavy armour, lance or additional hand weapon, severily loses in the versatility and customizability departments, and doesn't look half as badass (though he does have more bling). But that's not why you take a Tomb King. Where Vampire Lord is the perfect predator, Tomb King is the leader, focused on improving his army. He is much cheaper (170pts vs 220pts naked) and comes with at least light armor by default and has a fantastic rule called My Will Be Done, which allows his unit to use his WS. This would make Grave Guard even better than they were, but there's always the eggs/basket story and with this new book lords and heroes already tend to soak up lots and lots of points. Or you could go with Tomb Princes for a more cost effectient variation.

• Tomb Prince:

Even cheaper than Tomb King, but with same rule (though slightly lower WS). With new limit on heroes, feel free to take many Princes, greatly improving your footsloggers. WS5 Zombies? Hell yeah!

• Master Necromancer:

From the two mage-lords, this one is your summoner one. Unlike his mummified collegue, Mastermancer can increase a unit's size beyond its starting limit (with Master of the Dead upgrade), is 10pts cheaper and can ride a variety of mounts - which you shouldn't, you should stick him in a nice bunker - of Skeleton Archers, for instance. If you want numerous mages, take only one of these for Master of the Dead upgrade.

• Liche High Priest:

From the two mage-lords, this one is your support caster. Compared to Master Necromancer, he has +1T, has access to lores of Nehekhara and Light, providing the army with much needed buffs, especially from the lore of light. If you want numerous mages, take one Mastermancer in the back ranks and one Liche High Priest somewhere closer to the front, spamming Light-magic bubble goodness.

• Necromancer/Liche Priest:

See respective lord-version entries. If you have a Light Liche Hight Priest, Necromancers may be better options, as lores of Vampires and Death are superior to Lore of Nehekhara.

• Strigoi Ghoul King:

Still a proper punch sport, but with all the options you're getting and all the possible combinations you can make this guy will probably won't see the light of day much.

• Wight King:

An awesome option in VC book, not so much here. Compared to the Tomb Prince, he has basically same statline, KB, -1WS, +1I, has no Curse and is 15pts cheaper. His main downside is lack of My Will Be Done. On the other hand, Wight King can take a cavalry mount, can take heavy mundane armour and in even benefits from My Will Be Done himself. If you want a BSB, take Wight King. Oh, and he's non-flammable. Also, if you want to be a dick (of course you do), take 10 with great weapons and stick them in a unit of grave guard. Watch your opponent desperately struggle to get through T5 5+ as you launch 30 S6 wight king killing blows, followed by 20 S6 grave guard attacks which all have a +1 to hit with banner of the barrows. -NICE-

• Tomb Herald:

Disregard his statline and banner-carrying, they are non-important. This guy's Bodyguard special rule allows him to take wounds for his Tomb King, allowing the Tomb King to pick Destroyer of Eternities and still be survivable. Don't forget to load this guy on magic armour, as wounds are transferred before saves. Basically, you up your Tomb King's cost to Vampire levels, but in return get awesomely survivable character with 150pts item allowance and MWBD. And if Tomb Herald can take wounds for Vampire Lords... let's not dwell on that, the thought is HORRIFING. Sadly, they can't, they can only do so for princes and kings.

• Necrotect:

Very cheap, grants Hatred to his unit and has fine (by VC standards) Ld. Stick him with Grave Guard and watch them melt enemies. With 50pts magic item limit he can be turned into a cheap specialized tool too. The Mortis Engine provides a better regeneration aura, but his Animated Construct regeneration can be buffed with the Mortis Engine, which is fantastic and make your constructs shrug off one of their few weaknesses; cannonballs.

• Tomb Banshee:

With awesome shooting options from TK army, and now competing against even more awesome Heroes (Tomb Princes in particular), there's absoltely no reason to take these, as Heroes at least.

• Cairn Wraith:

See above, but these shmucks cannot even shoot. Pass, pass, pass.

Core Units

• Zombies:

Tarpits extraordinaire. Vulnerable to crumbling, but that can be mitigated with the right choices. Don't leave your Tomb/Crypt/Mausoleum/Pyramid/whatever without them.

• Crypt Ghouls:

Hit hard compared to the other infantry choices, but are more expensive and more fragile as well.

• Dire Wolves:

A good flanking unit/missile screen and good scouts/warmachine hunters in small games. In larger games Skeleton Horse Archers can do their job, and Spirit Hosts are a better missile screen for infantry.

• Skeleton Warriors:

You know them, you love them. With the new rules, they are effectively identical in both armies. (Technically, TK skellies are 1pt cheaper but have to buy light armor for 1pt. VC skellies start with light armor. Also, VC skellies can take spears for free, while TK skillies gotta buy them for 1pt. Not that it all matters)

• Skeleton Archers:

Compared to the previous entry, this choice is a no-brainer (pun not intended). Take at least one unit of these, even if you're going for VC units.

• Skeleton Horsemen:

Light Cavalry ahoy! Full-cavalry lists are a thing now! The world of the living will be trampled under unliving hooves! Apart from that, Horse Archers are probably a better choice, as Hexwraiths and Black Knights fill all "Melee Skeletal Horseman" niches perfectly.

• Skeleton Horse Archers:

A decent choice, they make good scouts (especially if they gain the ability to march, stand and shoot or both) and can soften up enemy units before you charge in with something else. There are no VC equivalents, so they are definitely worth a look.

• Skeleton Chariots:

One of the Tomb King's main advantages. Even with the large amount of options, you have no excuse not to take these. Units of chariots can bring the pain and be hard to put down, especially useful if you're versing Elves. Very good as a flanking unit, just be careful of the unit's footprint (large surface area of the combined bases can make manoeuvering difficult).

Special Units

• Tomb Guard:

For 11 points you get a pretty good (for a skeleton) statline, Killing Blow, magic standard, shield and light armor, with an option to swap that shield for a halberd for 2 points. They were a bit overpriced in TK army, and in the Legion they lose out to...

• Grave Guard:

For same 11 points you get same statline, KB, magic standard and shield, but with heavy armour instead of light, ability to march and great weapon instead of halberd. Since you have abominable I (3), that ASL won't be even felt, so you that is just +1S, basically, and for just 1 point. Even though Tomb Guard get +2Ld, they are not worth it. If you want elite infantry, take Grave Guard.

• Corpse Cart:
• Crypt Horrors:
• Fell Bats:

Normally a decent choice, they lose to Carrion (*see below) in an Undead Legions list.

• Bat Swarm:
• Spirit Host:
• Hexwraiths:

At a glance they render Horse Archers redundant, though this is not the case. Hexwraiths have the advantages of Ethereal and their attacks, though they're more expensive (in points and dollars) and cannot shoot or scout. Hexwraiths are a harassing/denial unit.

• Vargheists:
• Black Knights:

A good linebreaker choice, the Black Knights offer the advantages of ignoring terrain, slightly higher armour save and strength on the charge. Though with Necropolis Knights and Blood Knights they lose out. It is useful to ignore terrain when charging but the chance to pop up behind the enemy's lines can be even better.

• Necropolis Knights:

A more versatile unit than Black Knights, and your opponent will cry if they get in his army's rear. Necropolis Knights have the advantages of Monstrous Cavalry, poisoned attacks and their EbtS ability allowing them to spring up in an opponent's vital areas. If you have to choose one special unit linebreaker, choose these, but take both if possible.

• Tomb Scorpion:
• Ushabti:

Overpriced and not worth it in pure TK army, and against new VC options? Totally not worth it. Use their awesome models as "count-as" Crypt Horrors (boy, are those ugly guys), or stitch on some wings and use them as Morghasts.

• Tomb Swarm:
• Carrion:

Good at flanking and hunting warmachines with S4 and undead. Superior to Fell Bats in almost every way. They're a few points dearer, but have higher S, T, A and Ld. Also, now they can properly fly! (only within General's range though, much like vampires' undead).

• Khemrian Warsphinx:

Decent infantry-killers and a good distraction/missile screen from your other big and nasty units (a buffed Warsphinx is more likely to survive a ranked Ogre charge than a Coven Throne). A breath attack is always a good investment and the model looks kickass.

• Sepulchral Stalkers:

A decent choice with becomes spectacular against low initiative armies. They don't take the job of any Vampire Counts units and their gaze works similar to a Terrorghiest or Banshee Howl (except for the chance of backfiring). Take them against low initiative armies (Dwarfs) or Banshees/Terrorgheist against average or lower leadership armies (Empire).

• Morghast Harbingers:

The new and exclusive unit. Hovering monstrous infatry, 5+ save, KB, Terror. New special rule - Heralds of the Cursed One: Causes all friendly Undead around them to suffer 1 less wound from Unstable rule. Cost 10pts less than Rare version and have 1 less wound.

Rare Units

• Varghulf:
• Blood Knights:

A great linebreaker, these guys would compete with the Necropolis Knights for that honor though they have different uses. Blood Knights are a hammer, where Necropolis Knights are a pocket-knife, with rules that can handle various situations. Take them against heavily armored opponents.

• Cairn Wraiths:
• Black Coach:
• Terrorgheist:
• Mortis Engine:
• Necrolyth Colossus:
• Hierotitan:
• Necrosphinx:
• Screaming Skull Catapult:

A welcome choice in this army. The ability to force panic tests, let alone magical and flaming ones is not to be overlooked. They make a shooty undead army a viable and deadly prospect.

• Casket of Souls:

Worth it. If you're even thinking about a magically offensive army, this is a mandatory unit.

• Morghast Archai:

The new and exclusive unit. For 90 points you get a solid statline (S5 T5 W5 A3), 4+ and halberds. Rest of rules as Morghast Harbinger, including anti-crumbling aura. All in all, nice support unit to provide resilience to your unstable units, capable of surviving in melee, if need be.

Tactics

Well... somebody actually thought that the Undead Legion wasn't a broken idea? Let's get right to it, then.

Vampire Counts have a fantastic core army composition, but few supporting elements. Tomb Kings have a bad core army roster (those CHARIOT UNITS disagree), but fantastic support elements. Undead Legion lets you use all units of both armies. Cherry picking the good units from both books isn't rocket science.

50% Lord and Hero allowance is a dream come true for Vampires. Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon in 1500 point games? Multiple Vampire heroes? Vampires were always obese in their character choices, and suddenly having twice as many points to put towards them is.. well, completely game changing. You might want to let the other End Times alliances come out before taking advantage of this particular change. The alternative is that all your opponents will hate you, and not in the 'ha ha friendly rivalry' way. There is really no excuse, you should have at least one level 4 caster in every game now.

Nagash and Friends are cool looking, but they're HUGELY inferior to a kitted out Vampire Lord, point for point. Yes, they have a lot of wounds. That doesn't mean shit. You could take a Level 4 Vampire Lord on Nightmare with a decent power and gear kit, drop him in a bodyguard of Blood Knights or Black Knights, and the whole thing would be about as expensive as New Mannfred. It would also have more attacks, 2+/1+ armor saves, a 4+ ward save on the Lord, and just about as many wounds. Flying isn't even an advantage for the Morties, because taking advantage of it means that they'll be ahead of the rest of your army (which is to say, dead first).

In the same vein as the above point, cheap troop spam has NEVER been more appealing. Let's be real for a moment. Two fully loaded Vampire Lords are about as expensive as Nagash, and honestly I would rather play against Nagash than 1,000 points worth of Vampire Lords. And if Legion has options like that, you're going to want to load up on lots of cheap troops to saturate the field while still leaving room for your scary Vampires. Yes, Gee Dubs wants you to play with Lore of Undeath and summon lots of undead to the field.. but y'know what? Lore of the Vampires works just fine, especially since it'll buff the TK elements of your army now too.

Why are two Vampire Lords scarier than Nagash? Two words: Target priority. Nagash is big, so killing him is straightforward. You shoot him with cannons and spells until he stops moving. While scary, he's only got a 4+/4+. Any number of horrible things could happen to him (Warhammer Fantasy is basically Horrible Things: The Game), and once he's dead, you're out 1,000 points and literally all of your magic juice. Arch-Necromancer might be nice, but if Nagash is doing all your casting, eventually you'll 'whoops' him from miscasts alone. By contrast, if you have two Vampire Lords running around, you can set one up on each flank of your army and pose two very difficult problems to your opponent, especially if one's on a Zombie Dragon.

Spirit Hosts have a new model that doesn't look like a bunch of dudes hiding under bedsheets. There's really no excuse not to take them anymore.

Tomb Kings have a lot of really nice support elements in their list that VC just doesn't have. Necrotects, pretty much the entire Tomb King Rare list, and.. Tomb Princes. Tomb Princes and Necrotects with a unit of Grave Guard will turn anywhere into a charnel house. Necrosphinxes will also be funny for killing Nagash and Friends, or whatever other End Times badasses pop out of the woodwork.

Speaking of murdering really expensive models, Screaming Skull Catapults are your friends. Really. They're inexpensive artillery, which is one of the glaring flaws in the Vampire Counts roster. Since The End Times seems to be all about huge-sized monsters, a couple artillery pieces will be a good investment if you want to make sure everyone else joins you in the afterlife.

The only really big drawback to Legion lists is that VC's two best casters got cut. Kemmler is out, and Mannfred's not a loremaster anymore. This means that reliable buff spells (from their loremaster abilities) are no longer on the menu (sigh) so you'll have to make up for it in list anatomy. Luckily, Caskets of Souls and TK casters are in to replace their magical edge. If you can't have quality, make up for it with quantity, I suppose. Just take several casters (two minimum, and one of them should be a Level 4) and you'll be fine.

Lore of Undeath. Yeah, someone decided to let everyone summon skeletons. Literally everyone. Sigh. God damn it, Games Workshop. You were doing so well, and then you had to bust out the blatant marketing scheme to sell more zombies. On the whole, Lore of Undeath isn't bad, but it's what everyone is going to EXPECT you to have, so you should probably take Lore of the Vampires instead. Lore of the Vampires is very, very good at what it does, which is make your opponents dead. If you're loading up on casters with a Legion army (and you should be), Lore of the Vampires will do the lifting that you need.

The new Monstrous Creatures, Morghasts.. uh. There's really no way to say this nicely. They're overpriced (in both real money and points), and you have a dozen better options. Skip them and save your money for better kits. Another opinion on the Morghasts is that they are actually a good thing and not as overpriced as previously stated by a GW naysayer. The models stand as tall as a dreadnaught and are pretty awesome as well. In game they will provide some much needed high tough, high wound monster that can stay in the back lines of your army and not be torn to shreds as easy as a skeleton warrior. They are options worth consideration if for no other reason than they are cool models with fun rules and when it comes down to it (contrary to popular belief) winning is not everything.