Warhammer/Tactics/8th Edition/Daemons of Chaos

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Why Play Daemons of Chaos

There are a number of reasons to play daemons of chaos, so we'll deal with the minor ones first. The Daemons are pure, concentrated evil - destruction incarnate, really. They have some pretty slick models and a lot of options in the army, however, these reasons are overshadowed by the premier reason to play the Daemons.

Do you hate losing? I mean, do you REALLY hate losing to the point where you enter a fugue state immediately after you rage quit when a turn doesn't go your way? Well then Daemons of Chaos is the army for you! This is the army book written by the infamous dickface himself, arguably his first attempt to break an entire game system and utterly buttrape its canon. Yes, he did it in Fantasy before 40K. With Daemons of Chaos, you can field generic lords that can tear apart special characters of other armies, magic items that are immune to things that affect magic items, the most fuck-off troops in the game, and did we mention that the entire army at least causes fear, is immune to psychology and has a 5+ ward save? Play Daemons and you may never lose again.

Note that a popular choice with this army is magnetizing the models to both the square and round bases (Or simply using the round movement trays of whatever they seek best), so that you can have two armies in one. This gives you an advantage and disadvantage, the first is you have a army that can be used in both games. The disadvantage is, while you may win alot with Daemons in Fantasy, with Daemons in 40k, you will NEVER FUCKING WIN! Oh, and you got the Grey Knights that happens to rape you on turn one with Warp Quakes, so you'll more than likely not even bother playing Daemons in 40k.

Important Note: The above may not be 100 percent accurate anymore. Daemons were apparently so broken that fantasy required a complete revamp of the rules to take them off the top. Daemons are still a powerful tournament army, but they are getting edged out by armies more suited to the new rules set, armies whose special rules got a huge boost under the new rules set and armies who recently got brutal updates. Also, as for the 40k Daemons, they were so underpowered against many armies that after the launch of 6th edition and the White Dwarf update, it brought them back up from the bottom of the list, with the ability to field up to 10 flying monstrous creatures, Flamers and Screamers getting a buff, and the hull point system so you can glance vehicles to death. Still, Daemons remain a favorite of powergamers and can easily compete in most tournaments if you use them right. (Except against Grey Knights in 40k. Also the 40k Daemons will be getting a new army book (Codex), so keep an eye out for that!)

The new Fantasy Armybook is written by Matt Ward again. 'Nuff said, it'll either be a hideous nerfing to everything involved, more of the same, or greater levels of BS than ever before.

The new Daemons book is split into two sections: wtf this unit sucks and wtf this unit kicks ass

I'm still waiting for new tactics. What ever happened to 1d4chan getting shit done?

I bet they committed suicide due to fear of nerfing/overpowering of the new army book.

Update this mutha fucka right now!!!

Due to the delay of updates for the new Daemon army book, this section is getting out of date very quick. If you have the book, then please help 1d4chan by donating your free time and explain what the units do now in the new edition.

Unit Analysis

At first, Daemon units might seem frail with their lack of armour and few available options... until you look at their stat lines and their special rules. The power of the Daemons lies here and access to Daemon gifts only buffs them further. That said, these are not the 40K Chaos Daemons and so you don't get to deep strike your entire army. In fact, you deep strike none of it - you setup just as other armies. Remember that supposed frailty issue we were murmuring about earlier? Turns out Daemons can at least be shot at to keep them at bay, with almost nothing to contribute with in the shooting phase. Although unlike other armies, they all get ward saves against it.

Important Note Part 2: Under 8th edition, you are capped at 1/4th of your army spent on Lord choices, which at 2k means 500 points. If you have the book in front of you, you can already spot the issue, if not let me spell it out for you: Your Greater Daemons start at 450 points, which restricts the amount of stuff you can trick them out with (50 points max bucko). In addition, you should be careful with them: They are huge, obvious targets that can't join units and a few Cannons or Ironblasters can mean you've just spent 500 points on an expensive cannonball holder.

Important Note Part 3: The new book removed nearly every single gift as seen in 7th, and instead placed a random Daemonic Gifts table. This will be updated later on.

Important Note Part 4: Each of the 4 gods (Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh) all grant their respective daemons a unique trait.

         Daemons of Khorne: Grants +1S on the charge for the turn and Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh)
         Daemons of Nurgle: Enemy models suffer -1 to hit in CC vs Daemons of Nurgle and Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch)
         Daemons of Tzeentch: Grants a re-roll of channeling and ward save results of 1 (O.O) and Hatred ( Daemons of Nurgle)
         Daemons of Slaanesh: Grants Armour Piercing and Hatred (Daemons of Khorne)

Lords & Heroes

• Bloodthirster: You know him, you love him, Khorne's greater daemon retains his throne as one of the most killiest characters in the game. On top of the usual daemon awesomeness, he comes with two hand weapons, heavy armour, can fly, has magic resistance (2), and 10s in WS, BS, with I9, on top of Thunderstomp. Like last edition, this guy is susceptible to shooting, given that he will attract ALL war machine and general ranged attacks from your opponent, because if doesn't, he has to face a fucking Bloodthirster in close combat and get raped. This guy is also the only greater daemon that can't use magic, which has the strange ability of making him the potentially cheapest of the lot - you don't even have to buy this guy much, but if you must, you can purchase up to 100 points worth of Daemonic Gifts, keeping him just under the 501 point mark when loaded out.

• Lord of Change: This guy is a spellcaster. With the new book he no longer knows all the spells of the Lore of Tzeentch but now he can use the Lore of Metal instead if he chooses to. Oh, did we mention that this guy is a greater daemon with fly, flaming attacks and WS, BS, I and A scores that lord-level mages would turn gay for? He's taken a slight hit with how Daemonic Gifts work now as very few of the rolls with give his magic a real benefit.

• Keeper of Secrets: Probably one of the best choices here, solid magic ability, excellent close combat skills and have had a significant point drop (75). Again, the change to Gifts has significantly changed how you use this guy, no more crazy gift combos, but still very good for tearing through infantry or kitted out to be a fairly efficient character killer. As is the norm for monsters, expect your opponent to fire everything they have at it so pray for some good rolls on the gift table.

• Great Unclean One: He's fat, ugly and slow. He also has 10 motherfucking wounds (not anymore, DAMMIT MATT WARD!) Also throws down with poisoned attacks. The Daemon Lore of Nurgle is pretty slick for shredding low T/S units, but no need to really splurge here. He got an extra point of toughness but that really doesn't mean shit with how 8th edition works. His lowered point cost does make him more viable for smaller games though.

• Daemon Prince: The other generic lord-level unit. Cheapest by far, clocking in at a basic 250 pts. You HAVE to dedicate them now but Slaanesh is free and the rest are pretty cheap so it isn't a big deal. They can now be pumped to a LvL 4 wizard and take 4+ armour and wings in addition to their Gift allocation. Slap wings on em and go eat some wizards/warmachines. Very solid choice.

• Heralds: Your generic hero choices that come in 4 flavors as below. Note, all the heralds have access to abilities called "Loci," which makes them share their special power with a unit of troops of that Chaos god. They can also ride mounts or chariots of their gods.

• • Herald of Khorne: Close combat awesome! WS7, S5 and lots of killing blow attacks! His locus powers are either Magic Resist 3 (30 pts), Frenzy (60 pts) or Hatred (75 pts) granted to the Khorne unit he is in. Can also take 50 pts. of gifts. You can also put him on a Juggernaut or chariot. The HoK came out worse than before due to having to buy a Locus and lowered S.
    • *Blood Throne of Khorne: The only way you can get this thing in. But is it worth it? It's a chariot, has two Bloodletters on board, and the Blood Throne itself can attack (and heal itself if it causes wounds on impact hits!) However, the model looks like a cover from a Lady Gaga album, and I'm left wondering what happened to Doomrider. Build your kit to make a Skull Cannon instead, and BAM! Free Herald of Khorne in the box!

• • Herald of Tzeentch: Magic awesome! Not much of a stat line, but he comes as a level 2 wizard with a 4+ save base. His locus power shares his ward save with units of horrors. Advisable to take the Master of Sorcery gift, giving him instant access to every spell from any of the 8 lores of magic. You could instead put him on a Disc or Chariot of Tzeentch, but you're wasting the locus power.
  • Herald of Slaanesh: A very cost effective herald, comes with a pretty kickin' rad stat line with armor piercing, but the true awesomeness comes with the locus power: this guy/girl bestows ALWAYS STRIKES FIRST on him/herself AND a unit of daemonettes or seekers. Put this thing on a Steed of Slaanesh, stick him/her in a unit of seekers and give it the torment blade. Enemy cavalry will rush it thinking it a light target only to be struck first and having to take a leadership test in order to strike back. Can be made a level 1 wizard but not really worth it.
  • Herald of Nurgle: Still T5, still tougher and stronger than your average Plaguebearer. Can ride a Palanquin, giving him a 50mm base footprint and 4 Wounds! Can get very expensive very fast though, especially if you load him out with the 50 points of Daemonic Gifts and buy casting options for him. Can choose from one of three Locuses: Virulence (unit get Poison on a 5+), Fecundity (unit gets Regen), or Contagion (if any model in the unit scores a 6 to Hit for poison, the enemy suffers an additional S4 auto-hit).

Named Characters

Like the ones from 40K, only better and considerably so. There are three Greater Daemon and four herald characters.

Note: Under the current edition, named characters tend to be overpriced; you can pretty easily emulate most named characters from scratch and save yourself some points. That said, a few named characters do have abilities and wargear or wargear combos unique to them, so if you absolutely need to have them, go ahead. Just make sure you're really getting your points worth.

• Skarbrand, the Exiled One: 655 pts. for the angriest sonnova bitch of a bloodthirster ever! He also has three stats maxed out to 10 (M, WS and I) whilst re-rolling wounds and bypassing armour with his axes. He also has S5 breath weapon while bestowing friendly and non-friendly units with hatred. Keep in mind that unlike other bloodthirsters, Skarbrand does not fly.

• Kairos Fateweaver: 625 pts. for the greatest magic user in the game - seriously, even compared to Slann! He's a level 4 wizard that knows no less than 14 spells that you may CHOOSE, not roll for, you CHOOSE which spells you want before the game from Daemon Lore of Tzeentch or basic battle lores. His stat line is god-awful for his cost, apart from a 3+ ward save (coupled with a spell or two from the Lore of Life, this can make him extremely hard to kill), but you're taking this guy for the magic phase rape.

• Ku'gath, the Plaguefather: 650 pts. for a nigh-indestructible monstrous, poisoned stone-thrower that wounds on a 2+. He also rides a Palanquin of nurglings, but the real cool feature is, again, the fact that he hurls nurglings fit to burst from sucking his fatass off! They drop an artillery dice of wounds on a 2+ on an enemy unit in range (with no effect on a misfire). Can effectively neutralize war machines that would otherwise be shooting at him.

• Uzhul Skulltaker: RAPE INCARNATE! Essentially a herald of Khorne with a Lesser Locus, a WS and I of 9, flaming attacks, magic resistance, a 3+ armour save and heroic killing blow on a 5+! Great for hiding in a unit of bloodletters or bloodcrushers - just watch out for those always strikes first characters and dragonhelm, they can still fuck him up.

• The Masque of Slaanesh: Although better than her 40K incarnation, still not really worth it as she cannot join units. Pretty good in close combat with her unnatural reflexes and awesome at disrupting units with her eternal dance.

• Epidemius: The Nurgle version of Skulltaker, with T6, regeneration (no locus) and gives continuous buffs to Nurgle units in your army. Pretty sweet if you have the points to spare.

• The Blue Scribes: A tougher herald that randomly generates bound spells. Not really worth it.

Core Units

• Bloodletters of Khorne: Still the badasses from last edition, still have that Magic Resistance, Killing Blow, and a point cheaper now, too (and come with a modest Scaly Skin save). However, they dropped a point in Strength, and have to charge to get that point back...which shouldn't be a problem because Bloodletters let loose THE FUCKING FURY

• Pink Horrors of Tzeentch: Where bloodletters shine in close combat, horrors excel at magic. A unit of horrors is essentially a wizard that hurls bound spells from the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch depending on the unit's size. Obviously best taken in large blocks as to generate more horrors with the Firestorm of Tzeentch spell. Hide a Herald in this unit for added longevity and some additional spells.
  • The Changeling: special character unit upgrade for your horrors instead of an iridescent horror, that can shore up the lack of close combat ability in a squad of horrors. Basically a horror with Van Horstman's Speculum, he swaps stats with an enemy in base contact/a challenge.

• Daemonettes of Slaanesh: 10 pts. for M, WS and I of 6 and 2 attacks base with armour piercing make for some good fun in small units. Take a siren standard and a herald for some low point rape-tastic fun!

• Plaguebearers of Nurgle: Unique in fantasy battle, these guys' stats are almost entirely 4's. They have poisoned attacks and a crippling initiative of 1 but can be a very daunting prospect when marched in a horde. Stick a Herald inside with Noxious Vapours and/or slime trail and, like the bloodletters above, dare your opponent to charge them!

Special Units

• Bloodcrushers of Khorne: These guys got moved from the Rare units to Special, probably because GW noticed they weren't selling and they adjusted them in the book updates. They dropped in price and in strength: Bloodletters will only be hitting at S5 along with the usual Khorne swag in Magic Resistance and Scaly Skin and stuff. However, they did gain a wound in the trade off and as long as they charge (which they should be doing anyways) they get that lost S back. 65 points a model for 1 less point in Strength and 1 more wound. Is it worth it? Yes, yes it is.

• Seekers of Slaanesh: Daemonettes on Steeds of Slaanesh with a bit of a buff. Fast Cav, and the Steeds have Poison. But Fiends of Slaanesh still get the job done better. Still, not bad if you're playing on a budget, as they're roughly a third the cost of a Fiend.

• Flesh Hounds of Khorne: A cheap little way to wizard snipe your enemy. Magic Resistance (3), M8 and a fistful of high initiative/strength attacks. Not a bad choice.
  • Karanak, Hound of Vengeance: an upgrade for one of your hounds, makes your hounds scarier and dishes out more attacks with Hatred. Designate a character as his target and he can re-roll any hits and wounds against them.

• Furies: These birds from hell finally found a home in the Special Unit selection, and you have the option of dedicating the unit to a particular god for 2 points a model. Now we have a fast warmachine-hunting unit that even Dwarfs fear (if taking the Mark of Khorne).

• Flamers of Tzeentch: If you aren't fielding flamers in your Daemon army, you're doing it wrong! They are the armies only shooting unit with their BS4, S4 multi-shot D6 flaming attacks at 24". Oh, did I mention that they move 6 and suffer no penalties for multiple shots? And just when you thought that they will go down in close combat, that jackass gave them a S5 with 2 flaming attacks, albeit on a WS2. Still, you should be taking these things or else you're missing out. Disregard that, Warpflame means you have a 1/6 chance in giving your opponents a Regen save.

• Screamers of Tzeentch: The cheese portion of the special slot in an army renowned for being the most cheesy army ever. If you take these guys, take a bunch. Then do NOT charge anything: instead, fly them over as many units as you can, zig-zagging as you go dropping one S5 flaming hit per model on every unit they pass over. Yeah, it's like that.

• Nurglings: They till scout and skirmish, but lost Poison. Best to tie up things in the backfield or screen and hope a bad Instability roll doesn't kill them all.

Rare Units

• Fiends of Slaanesh: Wanna run down your opponents army on a flank charge? Bring some Fiends! S/T4 with 4 armour piercing attacks at I6 and a move of 10. Oh and they come stock with Soporific Musk. Use these creepy fuckers to flank and break basic and armoured infantry regiments with ease.

• Beasts of Nurgle: WE 60 POINTS NOW. Welcome to the new masters of never dying ever. Still get their d6+1 random attacks, still have 4 wounds, but also have Regen, Slime trail, Poison, and with Attention Seeker, they can take challenges and give them, meaning your solo Greater Daemon rape machine won't get stuck by that chump Skeleton champion over there. Take em home in boxes, take em home in cases. IF YOUR TZEENTCH OVERLORDS TRY TO STOP YOU, JUST THROW IT IN THEIR FACES

• Soul Grinder: An over glorified massive monster quasi war-machine expensive piece of junk that has no right being in fantasy. At a base cost of 250 pts. with many 50 pt. options this thing is a total rip off. Its biggest problem isn't even its cost, its that it has WS 3, S 6 and 4 Attacks meaning it will not be killing much of anything by itself thus losing combat and killing itself slowly. This is the only place in the entire book where you'll have artillery support outside of the Skull Cannon, and stone throwers aren't bad to have if you're trying to clear out specific targets in the backfield. It does compete with all of the other cool choices in the Rare Units, though... though it could find a home in a Warp Forge-oriented list.

• Plague Drones of Nurgle: These guys are even bigger bastards than the Beasts of Nurgle. 55 points gives you Monstrous Cavalry at 4, T5, poison, at least 4 attacks from each model, a Stomp, and they Hover. That's right, FLYING MONSTROUS CAVALRY. I've seen people divided over whether or not the model looks good, but what more do you want from a Rare unit? It's Plaguebearers riding flies from your sister's worst nightmares.

• Burning Chariot of Tzeentch:

• Skull Cannon of Khorne: YES PLEASE. Daemons now get a cannon mounted on a chariot, and Ogres wish they had something this cool. T5, Flaming Cannonball, and the chariot itself can attack and heal itself (like the Blood Throne), and IT CAN MOVE AND FIRE. Take two, and wonder what that Hell Pit was over there before it exploded.

Building Your Army

The Daemons battle force is a good place to start, otherwise start with a Herald and a block or two core. Bloodletters and Plaguebearers are good starts, expand with a Prince or a greater daemon and some supporting units like Daemonettes, Horrors or special/rare choices.

Army Composition

At 12 pts. per model, your cores are best put to use in Hordes with the possible exception of Daemonettes as they lose their attacks in the back ranks. Bloodletters are THE horde unit followed by Horrors and Plaguebearers. You also want to sneak Heralds into these units plus a special standard, though that last one is superfluous. Take Flamers or you're doing it wrong and either a Daemon Prince or a Greater Daemon (a KOS or LOC is recommended).

Daemonic Gifts

Daemons do NOT get access to magic items, which in 8th edition can be a bit of setback. However, they may purchase rolls on the Daemonic Gifts table, available to them in their army book and just like magic items, it's easy to go overboard with them. Your Greater Daemons get 100 pts. worth, Daemon Princes 75 and Heralds 50.

• Exalted Daemonic Gifts: These bad boys come in at 75 points per gift, so only your Greater Daemons might be running these. As such, a bad roll on here will make you feel like you wasted points. After the roll is made, you may choose to keep the roll or opt for the 0 option, just like with deciding magic spells. You cannot have multiples of the same roll, and you cannot buy more than two rolls on a table.
  • 0: Hellforged Artifact. Choose from a series of four magic items that may make the game even more fun:
  • 1: Aura of Disruption. You get a free dispel dice each time the model is on the board and a dispel attempt is made, like some weird anti-Slann.
  • 2: Sorcerous Lodestone. When anyone casts a spell, on a 5+, your Daemon regains a wound. If someone miscasts, on a 4+, your Daemon loses a wound. Why? BECAUSE CHAOS
  • 3: Bringer of the Swarm. For each unsaved wound you do to a unit (and there should be many), a unit of Chaos Furies is made next to you with a number of dudes equal to how many guys wounds you did. If you can't put the unit down, you get NOTHING. These guys count as victory points lol no they don't.
  • 4: Impenetrable Hide. +2 Toughness. Could be awesome, but everything wounds on a 6 anyway.
  • 5: Massive Might. +3 Strength. Aren't you already at S6 or higher anyway?
  • 6: Doubly Blessed. Roll once on this table and the Lesser table and take both, re-rolling results of 6.

• Greater Daemonic Gifts: These are worth 50 points apiece, and since you can take multiples, you have a better shot at getting what you want.
  • 0: Greater Weapon. Choose this and get either a magic weapon from the core rulebook worth up to 50 points, or get a god-specific weapon from the following page.
  • 1: Unholy Sacrifice. Lose d3 wounds with no possible save to get d3+1 Power dice in your magic phase that turn. In other news, emo Daemons are back, and that 5th Chaos God we don't speak of is trying to get out.
  • 2: Corpulence. +1 Wound. Nifty.
  • 3: Incorporeal Strike. No armor saves can be taken against this beast.
  • 4: Souleater. Remember Soul Stealer from the old book? It's back, but this time you only get one Wound back per combat phase.
  • 5: Unbreakable Skin. +2 Armor Save that cannot be improved EVAR.
  • 6: Unholy Flurry. +2 Attacks. Sweet!

• Lesser Daemonic Gifts: These are 25 points apiece, and cheap enough to make enemy characters think twice about challenging when a Herald is around.
  • 0: Magic Weapon. Same as the Greater Gift, but your max is at 25 points...or you could pick something your god wants you to have.
  • 1: Skill Swallower. If you slay a character in combat, increase one of your stats by 1. Your choice!
  • 2: Cleaving Blow. Your guy gets Multiple Wounds (2). Huehuehuehuehuehue
  • 3: Crushing Mass. When you charge, your daemon pretends he's an Ogre and gets d3 Impact Hits.
  • 4: Dark Blessing. You get a Luckstone!
  • 5: Noxious Breath. You get a Wood Elf Dragon Breath Weapon. Not too bad.
  • 6: Unnatural Swiftness. Always Strikes First, because fuck High Elves.

Magic

There are 3 Daemon Lores, one each for Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch.

• Daemon Lore of Nurgle: mostly spells that force toughness tests and cause wounds without armour saves. They range from poisoned missiles to spawning nurglings from wounds.

• Daemon Lore of Slaanesh: like the DLoN, except it forces Ld tests instead of T tests. Slicing Shards of Slaanesh will throw down a number of S5 hits with no armour saves equal to the result the unit failed a Ld test by, followed by more attacks if they fail another Ld test. Also has a spell that forces all Ld tests to be rolled on 3d6 choosing the highest

• Daemon Lore of Tzeentch: Mostly magic, flaming missiles like flames and bolt of Tzeentch, but also with a spell similar to the one in the DLoN, but instead of spawning nurglings, it spawns horrors; best used by large units of horrors (preferably in a horde). Lords of Change get to throw down with a potentially game-breaking spell (in a game-breaking army no less) called Glean Magic. This spell, should it be successful, hijacks one of your enemy wizards' spells and instantly casts it. It can't summon units, but it can augment yours or your enemy's units, hurl magic missiles and the like. Though Glean Magic can be dispelled, the spell it casts cannot and with a casting value of 9+ from a LOC means it's likely to be cast more than once to burn through your enemy's dispell dice!

Tactics

COME AT ME, BRO!

Take one Keeper of Secrets, L3 or 4 wizard optional, Siren Song with either Temptator, Allure of Slaanesh, Soporific Musk and/or Torment Blade (points permitting). March the motherfucker out towards enemy heavy cavalry. Cast Phantasmagoria if you have it then use siren song on the enemy heavy cavalry unit. Made more entertaining by supporting the KOS with Fiends or Seekers with a Herald of Slaanesh. Works even better if the masque is kept lurking nearby along with BSB with Great Icon of Despair. Enemy hero says, "What's that Slaanesh? You want me to kill my friends? I understand."

EDIT# don't skimp on fodder, while it is tempting to kit out game breakingly hilarious monsters enough ranked infantry can bring down even the biggest of them with a round of good rolls.

Daemon Horde

Take a core unit 10 wide and 4-5 deep (40-50 models for 480-600 pts.!) and load with one herald. Tactics differ depending on the core choice:

• Bloodletters: Insert Herald with firestorm blade and armour or standard and/or Skulltaker. March out into the middle of the board and wait for your opponent to charge the unit. Be sure to support the flanks (preferably with BoNs), but not a big deal because the bloodletters will take it. This is the best horde as far as hordes go due to the fact that anything charging such a big squad of bloodletters will be torn apart - I mean it! Few things can survive one round with a bloodletter horde and NOTHING can survive more than one round - NOTHING!

• Plaguebearers: Insert Herald with Palanquin, Noxious Vapours and/or Slime Trail and/or standard and/or Epidemius. As above, dare your opponent to charge, flanks don't matter but watch out for fire.

• Horrors: Insert a Herald with Master of Sorcery and/or standard. You ideally want a HUUUUUUGE unit of horrors so you can use that nifty DLoT spell that spawns more horrors at the expense of your opponent's army.

• Daemonettes: Daemonettes are iffy for this tactic as every rank not in the front is giving up 2 of its 3 base attacks. If you must though, insert a Herald with Many Armed Monstrosity, and go tear up your opponents flank.

Slippery Slopes

Two regiments of Beasts of Nurgle (if you can afford it) on your armies extreme flanks. Keep them ahead of the central force of your army. Works well with the above Horde approach.