Editing Space Marines (section)

==The Lifespan Debate==
[[File:Sons of Corax by MajesticChicken.jpg|450px|thumb|left|When the going gets tough, the tough get going.]]
The lifespan for Astartes is something of a tricky subject. Because although Astartes refer to normal humans as “mortals” and their daddies and Big E never said they were wrong to and although a Salamander from the Great Crusade was found fused by his armor to his ship’s deck (and insane from boredom) ten thousand years later, some dumb bitches don’t want the demigods to be demigods. Probably the same people who imagine Astartes as similar to Halo’s Spartans despite the examples of handfuls of Space Marines butchering entire armies of super aliens and daemons from literally Hell itself (sometimes one and the same). While it’s made clear that Space Marines live many centuries longer than normal humans, exactly how long they’re ''supposed'' to live has never really been elaborated on; and furthermore, keep in mind that the middle age of the upper-class Imperial citizens is circa 3 centuries or so. It doesn’t help that there has never been a Space Marine shown or described to have ever died of anything resembling old age, and that different chapter bloodlines (and writers) each appear to handle aging differently. So there really isn’t any kind of baseline to work with here. Perhaps most central to the issue is the question of whether or not Astartes are biologically immortal. Of course, there’s also the question or whether or not gene-seed from a Primarch instead of hand-me-down man juice makes a difference.

On the “for” side, both [[Dan Abnett]] and [[Graham McNeill]] claim that Astartes are indeed immortal, and that although they might physically age (grey hair, wrinkles, etc.) it is only skin deep and they are in just as good physical condition as when they first joined the Astartes, only dying when they are killed. Nick Kyme also appears to be a believer in the immortal point of view (though more in a sitting-stone-gathers-moss-and-lasts-forever kind of way), as in his Salamanders series, an [[wat|Astartes survivor from the Horus-friggin-Heresy was found in a crashed and buried Salamanders starship]]. His armor had melded into the metal of the ship and he could no longer move, but he was alive. He had apparently been sitting there watching over the empty, ancient suits of armor from his fallen brothers for ten thousand years. He was also borderline crazy from all the memories filling his head (thanks eidetic memory, but then if he had human memory he'd have Alzheimers or something) and his vocal cords and muscles were desiccated, but the latter are implied to be due to atrophy from inactivity more than anything else so that doesn't count. [[Nick Kyme]] also touched on the subject in Fall of Damnos, with a Tactical Sergeant remarking that he did not know himself if Astartes could die of old age, or that even if they could he had never heard of it happening - indeed, it would be a dishonor to the warrior lifestyle of a Space Marine to do so. The Night Lords series by Aaron Dembski-Bowden is another in the "for" catagory, at least in that the Astartes refer to humans as "mortals," and Talos, at just 300 years old, is apparently considered young for a Crusade-era, unwarped traitor Space Marine. David Annandale has also made allusions to the longevity of the Astartes. In ‘The Death of Antagonis’ Brother Nithigg of the Black Dragons chapter is noted by Sergeant (later Captain) Volos to be ‘at least 1000’, and showing no signs of slowing down or decrease in combat efficiency.

On the “against” side, the [[Blood Angels]] are specifically noted for having exceptionally long, but limited lifespans, namely a 1000 years give or take, and Marines from other Chapters don’t live nearly as long. Although they have several major genetic flaws working against them. This has been reaffirmed in the current Blood Angels Codex, and it should be noted that it was written by GW's biggest Space Marine fanboy. Yes, even [[Matt Ward|Ward]] says Space Marines can die of old age. Even Abnett has flip-flopped a bit on it, with Brothers of the Snake (admittedly his first time writing Space Marines) portraying the apothecary Khiron as starting to slow down with his advanced age and not being quite as fit as he used to be. The Space Wolves also have a dedicated unit representing their more senior members in the [[Long Fang]]s. While the canis helix certainly plays a part in their aging, it is also implicit that these warriors represent a more traditional "warrior elder." Maybe most importantly, a highly plot-relevant fact about the duel between [[Abaddon]] and [[Sigismund]] is that everyone present, Abaddon included, agreed that if Sigismund had not been slowed down by his age, he would have been the clear victor, and Abaddon only managed to fight him to a near-mutual-kill draw because he had been protected from aging by living in the Eye of Terror. Other things you can handwave or retcon, but the Black Templar vs the Black Legate is as close to sacrosanct as you get. Although, lore also says that the older a Marine gets, the stronger his augmentations become.

Of course all of the above might reflect differences in the stability and expression of traits in given "strains" of gene seed. Both the BA and the SW have documented flaws and instabilities in their gene seed whereas the Salamanders descend from a perpetual. Perhaps the IF sit somewhere between those extremes being descended from a the tough as nails, uber durable and stubborn Rogan Dorn.


Unsurprisingly, BL tends to be inconsistent with their lore. There's 2 reasons for this. 1st is because some gamers would think less of the Space Marines if they could die of old age, which Gee Dubs doesn't want. 2nd is because GW seems to agree that not dying of old age would be great. However, they wouldn't want to anger the part of the fanbase that doesn't want Astartes to be biologically immortal, so GW must be deliberately vague on this. This is retarded because the god-like mystique comes from their immortality. Removing immortality would demote the Astartes from demigods to super-special forces, lacking much of their awe. Woop-dee-fucking-doo. The people who don't want the Astartes to be immortal are whiny bitches who want their own armies to seem more impressive by dragging the Astartes down to a mortal level. Which is pathetic and probably heretical.

Others have tried to argue that biological immortality would limit the incentives for Heretic Astartes to seek demonhood, but these people fail to make a key distinction. The inability to die of old age doesn't remove the threat of injury or death. On the other hand, ascending to demonhood leaves you unbound to physics and immune to death, instead being banished for a time. For those wondering, Chaos Marines who remember the Horus Heresy but lack demonhood aren't considered for this debate due to warp fuckery. The Night Lords and Alpha Legion are an exception since their location lacks warp-taint, but it's unknown if any of them are from the Horus Heresy.

Regardless, the true measure of an Astartes is their killing potential. If Astartes can die of old age, they'll more likely die in battle before age takes its toll. If age DOES take its toll, then the loss of potency due to old age will get them killed anyway. However, being ''slowed down'' by old age doesn't count as ''dying'' of old age. General estimates place the average Astartes life expectancy at 400-500 years, becoming a venerable elder and certified badass if they exceed this span.

On a more grimdark note, the Horus Heresy series shows that Astartes are vulnerable to mental traumas like PTSD thanks to a lifetime of war in the meat grinder. It's possible that instead of old age, it's the weight of mental trauma that slows them down. Dan Abnett never wrote those books of course, who believes that Big E wouldn't make super soldiers vulnerable to mental trauma (no galactic ruler worth their salt would allow such ailments to happen if they can prevent it). That is to say, if the Emperor cared enough to bother preventing it if he didn’t intend the Astartes to live past their usefulness (not necessarily killing them, but not replacing them when done as he see’s them as weapons). Others have argued that mental trauma is endured in training, and continues until they become proper Astartes hardened to such struggles.

Ultimately, it probably comes down to how well an individual’s genetics accept the progenoid’s changes to their genetic template to accept the other implants and whether or not there are major flaws in the gene-seed.

With the return of The Lion, fresh questions have been raised about just how much the Emperor's creations can stand the test of time. Sleeping beauty has shown significant signs of aging after 10,000 years. On the one hand, if even a Primarch starts showing his age then that might seem like bad news for their sons in the immortality department. On the other hand, all signs of this aging seem to only be in his appearance rather than physicality. Indeed, The Lion managed to best demon-Angron in single combat. [[Anime|Maybe it's old man strength]]?